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foreign

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in June 1992 an extraordinary meeting

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took place at a major university in

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Cambridge Massachusetts concerning the

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UFO Abduction phenomenon the abduction

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study conference attracted mental health

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practitioners UFO investigators and

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abduction Witnesses from throughout

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North America and around the world

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following the conference a group of

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investigators and therapists gathered

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together for a provocative discussion of

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UFO abductions the participants included

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Dr Thomas E Bullard assistant professor

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of folklore at Indiana University John

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Carpenter licensed clinical social

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worker and psychiatric therapist in

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Springfield Missouri

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Dr David Gottlieb a physician and

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therapist in Toronto Canada

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Richard Hall a writer editor member of

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the national board of the fund for UFO

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research and author of a book on

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unidentified flying objects

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Bud Hopkins a New York City artist and

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UFO investigator and author of two books

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on UFO abductions

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Dr David Jacobs associate professor of

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history at Temple University and author

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of a recently published book on UFO

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abductions and Dr David Pritchard a

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professor at the Massachusetts Institute

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of Technology and coordinator of the

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abduction study conference

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the discussion was moderated by Richard

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Hall

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what exactly is an abduction report what

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is it that people typically report in an

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abduction case Eddie could you tell us

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the basic abduction report is is

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account of someone taken from the

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highway from a bedroom from the open air

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taken into an unusual environment by

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usually very short gray beings of

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humanoid but non-human description given

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a physical examination of some sort and

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then returned home sometimes the cases

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get more elaborate as the person has a

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conversation with the beings and in a

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few cases you also get even more

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elaborate descriptions of

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transport to some very strange seemingly

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otherworldly environment

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basic classic abduction report like in

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in those reports the key elements are

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the capture the examination of the

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return

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okay

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um maybe uh bud and Dave Jacobs could

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give us an example or two of a case

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well uh one of the things that uh should

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we mentioned is that this doesn't just

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happen necessarily one person at a time

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so if two or three people may be

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abducted say from an automobile or

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whatever when they're taken into the

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ship I should add there sometimes

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floated

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as if they're weightless and very rarely

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do they simply walk

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when they're taken into the ship they're

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generally that separate one from another

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so they'll have uh very consonant

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memories up until the time they finally

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go into the ship

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to have cases involving as many as seven

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people that were taken at once but

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inscriptions exactly as you described it

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okay I might add also that uh that the

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people who say these things are

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apparently around them cross-section of

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the population uh and there doesn't seem

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to be any patterns that we can find in

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terms of age or ethnic group or

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educational level or anything of that

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sort and they all describe basically the

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same experiences and many of the reports

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are are are fairly complex and uh and

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yet and there's of course A variation in

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detail in them in them but of course

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there's also a a certain Precision in

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their detail that is a very very

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extraordinary and uh and constitutes uh

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one of the core features of the

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abduction development okay let me ask uh

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I just sure

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what about the issue of what age are the

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people when these things happen and

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whether they happen more than once

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the uh cut off age for the first

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abduction is almost always about 30 or

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35. it's abductions seem to be an

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Affliction of the young

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sometimes starting at a very early age

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almost at the Cradle certainly by age

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say five or six

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and it usually goes on the rest may go

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on the rest of your life or

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good part I think it's also important to

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realize that the these cases in which a

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small child reports an abduction

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sometimes a great detail a child that I

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work with

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told his mother with great Terror the

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next morning that he had been floated

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out a window by three little beings they

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went up a blue beam of light into a ship

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he was put on a table things were done

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to his body

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some children then demonstrated to their

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parents the Mark was cut was put on the

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body and so on and these are children

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two three four five years old leaving so

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we're not getting something that's

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feeding back through films or whatever

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there is a remarkable thought of detail

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that keeps recurring from people who

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know nothing about the phenomenon who

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know nothing about other people's cases

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and as you said even little children who

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have no

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possibility of remembering well

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still say the same thing let me also say

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this that at the same time we do get

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quite a large number of reports from

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people who have had these experiences

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from the time that they were small

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children and who now might be in their

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60s or 70s and are still having the the

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experience as well and the experiences

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have a similarity basically with other

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people's experiences in other words

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there's a change in the way in which

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they might be handled

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thank you

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from being a child to an adult but the

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all the cases seem to correlate

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according to age as well all the adults

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basically see if they're treated more

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and children are treated in other way to

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a certain extent

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okay now we've just come from an

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important conference in which we've been

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addressing this subject I'd like to ask

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Dave Pritchard to tell us what exactly

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was the purpose of this conference uh

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you know what did we hope to accomplish

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with it well you know of course like any

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conference you have a number of purposes

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and you try to balance them up but I I

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think first and foremost in the field

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like this it's very important to bring

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the researchers and the abductees or

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experiences or whatever you want to call

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them and together and in this case we

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also brought in a lot of related

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professionals as well

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um it's important to bring them together

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just to talk and to share the ideas and

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and uh in the presentations to present

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the latest results uh in the field a

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specific objective that differentiates

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this conflicts from many of the earlier

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meetings held at which inductees were a

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small or medium part of the proceedings

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were here they were the entire

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Conference of almost five days focused

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just on abductions no UFOs no crop

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circles and uh secondarily that we tried

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to bring in a wider group of

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professionals than is normally the case

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we tried to bring in people the

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psychologists you know for instance who

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are experts in ritual abuse or uh

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some sort of related Collective mental

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or aberrative phenomena dissociative

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phenomena we tried to bring in

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scientists and even theologians I mean

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this is a

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this problem I think when you really get

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into it is extremely broad it's not just

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a simple matter of being

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table examined and put back and

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certainly it has a tremendous effect on

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the experiences

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of course the third objective of the

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conference was to have a really good

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discussion and uh you know at least the

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total amount of time allocated

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discussion was about half of the

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presentation time it wasn't just you

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make your presentation and then you

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dodge a couple questions and sit down I

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mean we really had a good discussion by

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which I mean it was extensive uh and it

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was critical and we had a number of

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critics uh well mostly of the

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methodology or the interpretation in

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fact we even had a couple of people who

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were quite skeptical there and in the

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final purpose of the conference is to

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put out a proceedings that reflect what

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went on and reflect this feel pretty

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much from top to bottom left to right or

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however many dimensions you think it has

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okay we'll get a little a little later

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we'll get into uh what we think we've

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accomplished here but let me just ask

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the therapists what were your

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expectations coming into the conference

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what did you think we or hope we would

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accomplish

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I had well there were two things that I

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was hoping to take away from one was to

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collect more more clinical data and

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learn the results of clinical surveys

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that other people have done which will

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help me in my diagnosis and my treatment

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the other was to have a bunch of

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clinicians together and investigators

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and abductees representing a wide

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variety of experience so we can begin to

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put together some basic guidelines on

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how to proceed from from a therapeutic

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point of view

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John

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as therapists we all work in such

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isolated fashion far away from each

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other so each time we have an

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opportunity to come together like this

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it's it's like a family reunion of sorts

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although there's always new members that

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we haven't seen you forward

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and learn to pull them in and learn what

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their interests and expertise are

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I personally learned a great deal from

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the specialists in other

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parts of the field uh different aspects

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I had never

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encountered such expertise and knowledge

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regarding and that was quite helpful to

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me and will continue to be an ongoing

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process it's also quite helpful to hear

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from those who have experienced the

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phenomenon and again representation from

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all across the country and to see what

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was similar among their experiences and

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especially needs

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I think if I can just add one of them

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one of the things that made this meeting

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really special for me was the wide

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diversity of the Specialists that were

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invited to speak and invited to

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participate because one of my major

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concerns as a therapist is differential

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diagnosis someone may present

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believingly have an abduction experience

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but I have to separate out the true

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abduction experiences some other things

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which may resemble it closely or may

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resemble it not at all and we had people

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here who were expert in dissociative

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phenomena somebody with ritual abuse and

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psychologists psychometricians and so on

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it was very helpful for me to try to

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hone in on the people that I should

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really be identifying as abductees okay

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good let me ask the investigators from

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their perspective

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what their expectations were coming into

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the conference and and you can go right

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00:11:31,670 --> 00:11:29,640
ahead into what you think we've

283
00:11:33,710 --> 00:11:31,680
accomplished we'll talk later about

284
00:11:36,889 --> 00:11:33,720
where we go from here but so far what

285
00:11:38,930 --> 00:11:36,899
you think we may have accomplished

286
00:11:41,569 --> 00:11:38,940
all right from my point of view I would

287
00:11:43,790 --> 00:11:41,579
think the uh the most significant thing

288
00:11:46,190 --> 00:11:43,800
is is pretty much what Dave's Gottlieb

289
00:11:48,710 --> 00:11:46,200
said that we got so many people and so

290
00:11:50,569 --> 00:11:48,720
many diverse points of view together we

291
00:11:52,670 --> 00:11:50,579
got to see what people were doing in the

292
00:11:55,730 --> 00:11:52,680
field how they're in different

293
00:11:57,170 --> 00:11:55,740
perspectives can make a contribution to

294
00:11:59,150 --> 00:11:57,180
our understanding

295
00:12:01,910 --> 00:11:59,160
what's going on

296
00:12:03,590 --> 00:12:01,920
and I think it was a very enlightening

297
00:12:06,290 --> 00:12:03,600
sort of thing to see

298
00:12:09,350 --> 00:12:06,300
not only the the clinical side but the

299
00:12:11,750 --> 00:12:09,360
investigative side and all the variety

300
00:12:14,269 --> 00:12:11,760
of opinion and there was a lot of

301
00:12:16,730 --> 00:12:14,279
discussion about the interactions

302
00:12:18,889 --> 00:12:16,740
between an among investigators and

303
00:12:21,110 --> 00:12:18,899
therapists and the perceivers that was a

304
00:12:24,829 --> 00:12:21,120
good part of the conference if I like to

305
00:12:30,949 --> 00:12:27,829
okay actually it's not exactly to that

306
00:12:33,590 --> 00:12:30,959
point all right go ahead but um the

307
00:12:36,410 --> 00:12:33,600
thing that was most valuable to me I

308
00:12:40,130 --> 00:12:36,420
think is lies in the area of just very

309
00:12:42,410 --> 00:12:40,140
things that uh they badly uh mentioned

310
00:12:43,790 --> 00:12:42,420
I think uh for instance a woman spoke

311
00:12:45,550 --> 00:12:43,800
about uh

312
00:12:48,129 --> 00:12:45,560
her specialty which is treating

313
00:12:50,990 --> 00:12:48,139
post-traumatic stress disorder thickness

314
00:12:54,590 --> 00:12:51,000
what seemed to work better uh what their

315
00:12:56,329 --> 00:12:54,600
strategies of denial their the various

316
00:12:59,210 --> 00:12:56,339
systems they use to handle experiences

317
00:13:01,610 --> 00:12:59,220
and so forth uh even though she is

318
00:13:04,009 --> 00:13:01,620
working with the Vietnam war vets and

319
00:13:06,530 --> 00:13:04,019
other people right clicked into so forth

320
00:13:08,410 --> 00:13:06,540
uh the parallels are so extraordinary

321
00:13:12,170 --> 00:13:08,420
with what I run into

322
00:13:14,389 --> 00:13:12,180
practically daily with abductees was

323
00:13:18,410 --> 00:13:14,399
extremely helpful to get her perspective

324
00:13:21,530 --> 00:13:18,420
on treatment and behavior symptoms and

325
00:13:23,269 --> 00:13:21,540
so forth because not being a training

326
00:13:24,530 --> 00:13:23,279
therapist of course it's extremely

327
00:13:25,970 --> 00:13:24,540
important for me to get as much raw

328
00:13:27,530 --> 00:13:25,980
material off because like Anthony

329
00:13:29,090 --> 00:13:27,540
sources and I think so the investigators

330
00:13:31,190 --> 00:13:29,100
at least speed for myself

331
00:13:34,129 --> 00:13:31,200
all of that side of the program was

332
00:13:36,530 --> 00:13:34,139
extraordinarily important yes I I agree

333
00:13:39,230 --> 00:13:36,540
with that it was it gave me an insight

334
00:13:41,030 --> 00:13:39,240
into into various uh treatments and ways

335
00:13:43,129 --> 00:13:41,040
to approach the subject I think the

336
00:13:45,530 --> 00:13:43,139
conference also showed me uh basically

337
00:13:47,629 --> 00:13:45,540
uh where people are at on a personal

338
00:13:49,550 --> 00:13:47,639
level how they confront this phenomenon

339
00:13:51,769 --> 00:13:49,560
all the variations that one sees across

340
00:13:53,509 --> 00:13:51,779
the society on a professional level how

341
00:13:56,030 --> 00:13:53,519
people are investigating and how they're

342
00:13:58,790 --> 00:13:56,040
doing research it points directions as

343
00:14:00,829 --> 00:13:58,800
to uh to How Far We've gone and and what

344
00:14:02,329 --> 00:14:00,839
we need to do in the future as well and

345
00:14:04,790 --> 00:14:02,339
it kind of brings it all together in

346
00:14:07,310 --> 00:14:04,800
sharp relief and it's a it's an enormous

347
00:14:08,269 --> 00:14:07,320
benefit in that regard just one added

348
00:14:11,210 --> 00:14:08,279
thought here

349
00:14:13,090 --> 00:14:11,220
what was so fascinating to me about the

350
00:14:16,790 --> 00:14:13,100
role of the abductees at the conference

351
00:14:19,730 --> 00:14:16,800
the scientists and clinicians

352
00:14:22,009 --> 00:14:19,740
therapists and the investigators is that

353
00:14:23,569 --> 00:14:22,019
in a strange way each one of us is

354
00:14:25,190 --> 00:14:23,579
participating in the world of the other

355
00:14:27,889 --> 00:14:25,200
two to a much greater extent that we

356
00:14:30,650 --> 00:14:27,899
thought maybe one of the therapists

357
00:14:33,050 --> 00:14:30,660
suggested that those of us who were

358
00:14:34,970 --> 00:14:33,060
doing this work with people uh have

359
00:14:37,970 --> 00:14:34,980
these experiences are somehow picking up

360
00:14:39,829 --> 00:14:37,980
through just Association and osmosis I

361
00:14:41,269 --> 00:14:39,839
guess some of the same symptoms and

362
00:14:43,970 --> 00:14:41,279
anxieties of the people we're actually

363
00:14:46,850 --> 00:14:43,980
working with and I think that nobody can

364
00:14:49,370 --> 00:14:46,860
do an investigation without doing de

365
00:14:51,530 --> 00:14:49,380
facto therapy yes and nobody can do

366
00:14:53,689 --> 00:14:51,540
therapy without in a strange way what's

367
00:14:55,670 --> 00:14:53,699
that's an unusual subject being a kind

368
00:14:58,069 --> 00:14:55,680
of pioneer investigator so we're all

369
00:14:59,689 --> 00:14:58,079
three in a strange way infinitely more

370
00:15:01,490 --> 00:14:59,699
interlocked with one another's worlds

371
00:15:04,730 --> 00:15:01,500
than we had thought how do the

372
00:15:07,790 --> 00:15:04,740
therapists feel about this relationship

373
00:15:09,769 --> 00:15:07,800
I think we're still trying to work on

374
00:15:13,129 --> 00:15:09,779
exactly how to define it I think

375
00:15:15,110 --> 00:15:13,139
basically one's point is exactly right

376
00:15:19,370 --> 00:15:15,120
whether I'm working with an abductee or

377
00:15:20,990 --> 00:15:19,380
any other kind of problem or syndrome as

378
00:15:23,810 --> 00:15:21,000
a therapist I am de facto an

379
00:15:25,550 --> 00:15:23,820
investigator because it's a dynamic

380
00:15:27,650 --> 00:15:25,560
organic process I'm learning more about

381
00:15:29,870 --> 00:15:27,660
the person more about his biographies or

382
00:15:31,670 --> 00:15:29,880
her biography and so on and I think it's

383
00:15:33,050 --> 00:15:31,680
true uh from the other the other

384
00:15:35,030 --> 00:15:33,060
direction one of the things that we were

385
00:15:36,730 --> 00:15:35,040
talking about today and it was it was an

386
00:15:40,670 --> 00:15:36,740
interesting discussion back and forth is

387
00:15:42,590 --> 00:15:40,680
how does one balance the therapist and

388
00:15:44,389 --> 00:15:42,600
the investigators roles one person said

389
00:15:46,310 --> 00:15:44,399
that there should be a tria there should

390
00:15:48,410 --> 00:15:46,320
be an investigator a therapist and an

391
00:15:51,470 --> 00:15:48,420
experiencer Who as a team should move in

392
00:15:54,110 --> 00:15:51,480
and deal with each experience or one

393
00:15:55,970 --> 00:15:54,120
suggestion and I think out of out of

394
00:15:57,410 --> 00:15:55,980
this conference is probably going to

395
00:16:00,470 --> 00:15:57,420
come

396
00:16:03,050 --> 00:16:00,480
a working group which will work towards

397
00:16:04,790 --> 00:16:03,060
a proposal for how to answer these

398
00:16:06,590 --> 00:16:04,800
questions in a way that the entire

399
00:16:08,689 --> 00:16:06,600
Community can accept and debate so which

400
00:16:10,610 --> 00:16:08,699
we can introduce it into the into the

401
00:16:14,210 --> 00:16:10,620
public forum it can be our community

402
00:16:15,710 --> 00:16:14,220
policy I I would just like to interject

403
00:16:19,009 --> 00:16:15,720
that um

404
00:16:23,569 --> 00:16:19,019
it seemed you know the key in this whole

405
00:16:25,910 --> 00:16:23,579
field is the tremendous uh impact in

406
00:16:28,129 --> 00:16:25,920
just feeling that something important

407
00:16:29,750 --> 00:16:28,139
has happened that you get when you speak

408
00:16:32,990 --> 00:16:29,760
to the abductees that's where it all

409
00:16:34,790 --> 00:16:33,000
starts uh but I've and at the previous

410
00:16:37,069 --> 00:16:34,800
meetings where there have been uh

411
00:16:38,389 --> 00:16:37,079
abductee panels or presentations you

412
00:16:40,790 --> 00:16:38,399
know that's what's come across most

413
00:16:41,990 --> 00:16:40,800
strongly but at this point I had much

414
00:16:44,629 --> 00:16:42,000
more of the feeling that they were

415
00:16:46,009 --> 00:16:44,639
beginning to talk to us and say you know

416
00:16:47,569 --> 00:16:46,019
some of you people have been too narrow

417
00:16:51,530 --> 00:16:47,579
you haven't opened yourself to this full

418
00:16:53,629 --> 00:16:51,540
experience and uh and as as Bud said I

419
00:16:56,150 --> 00:16:53,639
think you're you're partly a participant

420
00:16:59,090 --> 00:16:56,160
in this not just an observer

421
00:17:01,490 --> 00:16:59,100
yes and they they spoke rather strongly

422
00:17:03,710 --> 00:17:01,500
about the problem they have and uh

423
00:17:05,809 --> 00:17:03,720
establishing their relationships with

424
00:17:08,630 --> 00:17:05,819
both therapists and investigators would

425
00:17:10,490 --> 00:17:08,640
you like to address that a little bit

426
00:17:12,350 --> 00:17:10,500
well I looked at actually start off I

427
00:17:15,590 --> 00:17:12,360
mean that's clearly one of the

428
00:17:17,809 --> 00:17:15,600
really underlying dichotomies in the

429
00:17:19,429 --> 00:17:17,819
people who are looking at the abductees

430
00:17:21,650 --> 00:17:19,439
you know you have the investigators who

431
00:17:24,530 --> 00:17:21,660
are assuming that there is some

432
00:17:26,449 --> 00:17:24,540
underlying reality in many cases not all

433
00:17:27,650 --> 00:17:26,459
of them uh and then they're trying to

434
00:17:30,770 --> 00:17:27,660
find this out you know without

435
00:17:33,770 --> 00:17:30,780
Distortion uh you know by the the

436
00:17:35,029 --> 00:17:33,780
emotions of the parsippium which is

437
00:17:36,650 --> 00:17:35,039
extremely difficult to do but they're

438
00:17:38,630 --> 00:17:36,660
trying to get through that somehow to

439
00:17:41,630 --> 00:17:38,640
get get out get around the confabulation

440
00:17:43,070 --> 00:17:41,640
or the misapprehension and so on then on

441
00:17:45,350 --> 00:17:43,080
the other hand they're the therapy

442
00:17:47,330 --> 00:17:45,360
people who are really trying to change

443
00:17:49,490 --> 00:17:47,340
the way that these people look at their

444
00:17:51,529 --> 00:17:49,500
experience without particular regard for

445
00:17:53,810 --> 00:17:51,539
its origin and help them come to grips

446
00:17:55,669 --> 00:17:53,820
with it view themselves as survivors

447
00:17:57,289 --> 00:17:55,679
rather than victims or even there were

448
00:17:59,810 --> 00:17:57,299
some reports here of going beyond that

449
00:18:01,490 --> 00:17:59,820
uh and changing in a quite Global Way

450
00:18:04,850 --> 00:18:01,500
their perspectives on the whole thing

451
00:18:07,010 --> 00:18:04,860
the problem for for John and myself and

452
00:18:09,529 --> 00:18:07,020
the therapist who were here is that

453
00:18:10,730 --> 00:18:09,539
uh most of us are working in as a

454
00:18:14,150 --> 00:18:10,740
practical problem most of us are working

455
00:18:16,370 --> 00:18:14,160
in regulated professions and at any time

456
00:18:19,070 --> 00:18:16,380
we can be called up to justify our

457
00:18:20,630 --> 00:18:19,080
actions as being rep as being as being

458
00:18:22,310 --> 00:18:20,640
following the accepted standards and

459
00:18:23,810 --> 00:18:22,320
practices of the community so we're

460
00:18:25,789 --> 00:18:23,820
caught in a really difficult situation

461
00:18:27,470 --> 00:18:25,799
on the one hand we recognize what's

462
00:18:28,970 --> 00:18:27,480
going on here we don't may not know

463
00:18:30,830 --> 00:18:28,980
exactly what it is but there are people

464
00:18:32,090 --> 00:18:30,840
who are isolated and Confused they're in

465
00:18:33,770 --> 00:18:32,100
pain and they need help they're

466
00:18:35,630 --> 00:18:33,780
interested we want to do as a public

467
00:18:38,450 --> 00:18:35,640
service to step in and try to use what

468
00:18:41,150 --> 00:18:38,460
skills we have on the other hand all of

469
00:18:43,310 --> 00:18:41,160
our training and experience is to

470
00:18:44,630 --> 00:18:43,320
recognize a particular Syndrome look at

471
00:18:46,130 --> 00:18:44,640
the research that's been done in the

472
00:18:47,690 --> 00:18:46,140
medical literature and apply it so that

473
00:18:49,250 --> 00:18:47,700
we can go back to our our colleagues and

474
00:18:50,930 --> 00:18:49,260
our peers and say this is what we're

475
00:18:52,610 --> 00:18:50,940
doing maybe the case didn't turn out

476
00:18:54,950 --> 00:18:52,620
right but not all cases will turn out

477
00:18:56,570 --> 00:18:54,960
right at least we did what you believe

478
00:18:58,669 --> 00:18:56,580
to be accepted practiced and there are

479
00:19:00,770 --> 00:18:58,679
no such standards here certainly not if

480
00:19:03,409 --> 00:19:00,780
I go back to my licensing board so we

481
00:19:05,090 --> 00:19:03,419
have to be we walk a very fine line we

482
00:19:06,409 --> 00:19:05,100
want to treat the experience or with

483
00:19:08,390 --> 00:19:06,419
respect we want to collect information

484
00:19:10,010 --> 00:19:08,400
so we can understand what we're dealing

485
00:19:12,289 --> 00:19:10,020
with so we can do a better service to

486
00:19:14,150 --> 00:19:12,299
the experiencer without going too far

487
00:19:15,710 --> 00:19:14,160
off and the data election to end it

488
00:19:17,990 --> 00:19:15,720
without going too far off in our own

489
00:19:19,730 --> 00:19:18,000
conceptualization of the phenomena and

490
00:19:21,950 --> 00:19:19,740
that's uh that takes a tremendous amount

491
00:19:23,210 --> 00:19:21,960
of thinking and discipline and dialogue

492
00:19:25,850 --> 00:19:23,220
and that's what this week was all about

493
00:19:28,190 --> 00:19:25,860
I think those are extremely important

494
00:19:29,930 --> 00:19:28,200
points uh those who've experienced the

495
00:19:34,490 --> 00:19:29,940
phenomenon certainly gave us a very

496
00:19:37,610 --> 00:19:34,500
clear message about trust responsibility

497
00:19:41,150 --> 00:19:37,620
not just any psychologist can pick this

498
00:19:43,130 --> 00:19:41,160
up and try to start seeing people and

499
00:19:45,470 --> 00:19:43,140
those who've experience this phenomenon

500
00:19:48,950 --> 00:19:45,480
immediately will recognize that they

501
00:19:50,870 --> 00:19:48,960
have a narrow focus and it immediately

502
00:19:52,250 --> 00:19:50,880
can discount very important parts of

503
00:19:54,470 --> 00:19:52,260
their experience so there's a great

504
00:19:57,890 --> 00:19:54,480
knowledge that those who are wanting to

505
00:20:01,610 --> 00:19:57,900
help need to obtain and we are

506
00:20:04,070 --> 00:20:01,620
constantly as nervous gaining in our

507
00:20:06,350 --> 00:20:04,080
understanding it's really a teaching

508
00:20:07,909 --> 00:20:06,360
that goes both ways

509
00:20:09,950 --> 00:20:07,919
so

510
00:20:12,529 --> 00:20:09,960
you know I think that these are all very

511
00:20:14,690 --> 00:20:12,539
important issues we have to stay as

512
00:20:16,610 --> 00:20:14,700
David said keep in mind very clearly

513
00:20:18,950 --> 00:20:16,620
very clearly

514
00:20:20,270 --> 00:20:18,960
but there's one of the professionals who

515
00:20:21,770 --> 00:20:20,280
was president who stated rather

516
00:20:23,930 --> 00:20:21,780
forcefully that it was absolutely

517
00:20:25,669 --> 00:20:23,940
impossible to do both investigation and

518
00:20:27,350 --> 00:20:25,679
therapy at the same time what do you

519
00:20:31,610 --> 00:20:27,360
some of these in it I like to address

520
00:20:34,909 --> 00:20:31,620
that okay indeed we wear many hats as it

521
00:20:37,070 --> 00:20:34,919
has been already stated a therapist is a

522
00:20:38,930 --> 00:20:37,080
natural data collector just because of

523
00:20:42,049 --> 00:20:38,940
the information the content of the

524
00:20:44,930 --> 00:20:42,059
session now as a therapist I focus on

525
00:20:47,510 --> 00:20:44,940
the symptoms the origin the treatment

526
00:20:49,549 --> 00:20:47,520
the resolution of that and in the

527
00:20:51,590 --> 00:20:49,559
process you may hear some pretty strange

528
00:20:54,350 --> 00:20:51,600
stuff and you're not going to Discount

529
00:20:56,330 --> 00:20:54,360
that especially if you've already judged

530
00:20:58,130 --> 00:20:56,340
the person to be saying you're you're

531
00:20:59,570 --> 00:20:58,140
naturally going to be collecting data

532
00:21:01,190 --> 00:20:59,580
and you're not going to just pitch it in

533
00:21:03,169 --> 00:21:01,200
the waste can especially with something

534
00:21:05,630 --> 00:21:03,179
so bizarre as this so

535
00:21:07,970 --> 00:21:05,640
at one point in the process you're the

536
00:21:10,750 --> 00:21:07,980
therapist you you're really tuning into

537
00:21:13,490 --> 00:21:10,760
the emotional needs but when those have

538
00:21:15,289 --> 00:21:13,500
subsided and the person is doing well

539
00:21:17,810 --> 00:21:15,299
then you can deal a lot more with the

540
00:21:20,090 --> 00:21:17,820
data side and you can switch hats you do

541
00:21:22,970 --> 00:21:20,100
not do both at the same time but you can

542
00:21:25,070 --> 00:21:22,980
switch hats in the process I think that

543
00:21:27,169 --> 00:21:25,080
a lot of the a lot of the problem here

544
00:21:29,510 --> 00:21:27,179
is in defining terms as it often is in

545
00:21:31,070 --> 00:21:29,520
discussions like this I think when

546
00:21:33,289 --> 00:21:31,080
people in this business use the term

547
00:21:35,470 --> 00:21:33,299
investigator they use it in the context

548
00:21:38,210 --> 00:21:35,480
of people who've gone out and examined

549
00:21:40,190 --> 00:21:38,220
ce1c2 and C3 cases they interview the

550
00:21:41,750 --> 00:21:40,200
people and they remain detached and they

551
00:21:43,250 --> 00:21:41,760
take pictures and they collect soil

552
00:21:46,610 --> 00:21:43,260
samples

553
00:21:49,970 --> 00:21:46,620
um and that's fine but uh

554
00:21:53,870 --> 00:21:49,980
as therapists we act as investigators of

555
00:21:55,549 --> 00:21:53,880
experience and that we cannot do that in

556
00:21:57,710 --> 00:21:55,559
a completely detached way and I don't

557
00:21:59,149 --> 00:21:57,720
think an investigator who does not call

558
00:22:00,950 --> 00:21:59,159
himself a therapist primarily still

559
00:22:02,750 --> 00:22:00,960
can't do it in a completely detached way

560
00:22:04,190 --> 00:22:02,760
most of the people who've been working

561
00:22:07,130 --> 00:22:04,200
in this as investigators have found

562
00:22:09,529 --> 00:22:07,140
themselves drawn into the support and

563
00:22:11,330 --> 00:22:09,539
the therapeutic aspects of what they're

564
00:22:13,490 --> 00:22:11,340
doing so we maybe we need a new word

565
00:22:14,570 --> 00:22:13,500
another investigator nor therapist but

566
00:22:16,549 --> 00:22:14,580
something else

567
00:22:17,570 --> 00:22:16,559
and I like to add one more point and

568
00:22:20,450 --> 00:22:17,580
that is

569
00:22:22,930 --> 00:22:20,460
it's it's hard to wear both hats so what

570
00:22:25,490 --> 00:22:22,940
many of us have already done is included

571
00:22:27,110 --> 00:22:25,500
an investigator now

572
00:22:29,330 --> 00:22:27,120
instead of thinking that they

573
00:22:32,090 --> 00:22:29,340
specifically deal with that part and I

574
00:22:34,490 --> 00:22:32,100
specifically deal with therapy

575
00:22:36,590 --> 00:22:34,500
um it's really like just having two

576
00:22:39,830 --> 00:22:36,600
heads two brains working on the problem

577
00:22:41,630 --> 00:22:39,840
it's really just a teamwork approach I'd

578
00:22:46,250 --> 00:22:41,640
like to mention one thing that's um

579
00:22:49,610 --> 00:22:46,260
about the Dual roles years ago when I

580
00:22:52,310 --> 00:22:49,620
first started with cases I was using a

581
00:22:54,110 --> 00:22:52,320
very psychiatrist and psychologists to

582
00:22:56,810 --> 00:22:54,120
do the hypnotic regressions

583
00:22:59,270 --> 00:22:56,820
uh and I was there in the role of taking

584
00:23:01,850 --> 00:22:59,280
notes and observing and so forth

585
00:23:03,289 --> 00:23:01,860
uh but the interesting thing was as soon

586
00:23:05,990 --> 00:23:03,299
as we left

587
00:23:08,210 --> 00:23:06,000
I would leave of course with subject

588
00:23:11,570 --> 00:23:08,220
the subject would be pouring out his or

589
00:23:14,090 --> 00:23:11,580
her heart to me about what had gone on

590
00:23:15,289 --> 00:23:14,100
the person would call me a little hours

591
00:23:16,789 --> 00:23:15,299
of the night we would have long

592
00:23:18,770 --> 00:23:16,799
discussions

593
00:23:20,450 --> 00:23:18,780
and autonomy at some point that in a

594
00:23:22,310 --> 00:23:20,460
peculiar way

595
00:23:23,930 --> 00:23:22,320
the person doing a hypnosis the

596
00:23:25,630 --> 00:23:23,940
psychologist was in a strange way the

597
00:23:27,710 --> 00:23:25,640
investigator and I was doing the therapy

598
00:23:29,330 --> 00:23:27,720
I was the one who was receiving the

599
00:23:32,510 --> 00:23:29,340
phone calls and trying to handle the

600
00:23:34,250 --> 00:23:32,520
person uh and the other person's role I

601
00:23:35,750 --> 00:23:34,260
mean that was not of course as clear-cut

602
00:23:37,850 --> 00:23:35,760
as that but it was a peculiar

603
00:23:40,789 --> 00:23:37,860
realization as to who was actually

604
00:23:42,590 --> 00:23:40,799
keeping that person afloat and what

605
00:23:44,210 --> 00:23:42,600
common sense skills one had to develop

606
00:23:47,810 --> 00:23:44,220
to do that

607
00:23:49,789 --> 00:23:47,820
um so I I agree with everything that's

608
00:23:52,010 --> 00:23:49,799
being said here is that it is extremely

609
00:23:54,470 --> 00:23:52,020
difficult to separate these roads

610
00:23:56,870 --> 00:23:54,480
yeah I'd like to also to agree with that

611
00:23:59,690 --> 00:23:56,880
of course it's uh it's it's difficult to

612
00:24:01,909 --> 00:23:59,700
to separate the roles and in a bit

613
00:24:04,370 --> 00:24:01,919
difficult to do therapy and to do

614
00:24:08,029 --> 00:24:04,380
investigation per se as such I mean this

615
00:24:10,070 --> 00:24:08,039
is a a very tough subject and uh I think

616
00:24:12,409 --> 00:24:10,080
it can be done with the specific with a

617
00:24:14,930 --> 00:24:12,419
sufficient amount of training I think

618
00:24:16,669 --> 00:24:14,940
that they're they're complementary and

619
00:24:18,350 --> 00:24:16,679
then I think that uh my own guess is

620
00:24:19,789 --> 00:24:18,360
that a therapist probably would work

621
00:24:21,890 --> 00:24:19,799
better knowing exactly what has happened

622
00:24:24,710 --> 00:24:21,900
to the individual so they know what to

623
00:24:26,149 --> 00:24:24,720
work with and what to work on and uh if

624
00:24:27,470 --> 00:24:26,159
you've been buying these two with a

625
00:24:29,810 --> 00:24:27,480
certain amount of insight and compassion

626
00:24:31,490 --> 00:24:29,820
and Humanity you'll find out what is

627
00:24:34,010 --> 00:24:31,500
happening and you'll also find out the

628
00:24:35,930 --> 00:24:34,020
best ways to approach treatment but this

629
00:24:39,110 --> 00:24:35,940
is it's not easy and most people as

630
00:24:41,630 --> 00:24:39,120
David you say or UFO researchers uh

631
00:24:43,789 --> 00:24:41,640
who've gone and investigated CE ones and

632
00:24:45,950 --> 00:24:43,799
so forth this is just not an area that

633
00:24:47,990 --> 00:24:45,960
that they're that's easy for them to get

634
00:24:51,070 --> 00:24:48,000
into you know it's very difficult I

635
00:24:53,830 --> 00:24:51,080
think you can sum this up in terms of

636
00:24:57,649 --> 00:24:53,840
compassion trust

637
00:24:59,990 --> 00:24:57,659
responsibility and open-mindedness

638
00:25:03,169 --> 00:25:00,000
in my own personal experience as an

639
00:25:05,770 --> 00:25:03,179
alleged investigator I find it very very

640
00:25:08,090 --> 00:25:05,780
difficult to do classical

641
00:25:10,610 --> 00:25:08,100
investigation I find myself being far

642
00:25:11,870 --> 00:25:10,620
more a therapist a counselor and I do

643
00:25:14,390 --> 00:25:11,880
not feel comfortable with that at all

644
00:25:16,190 --> 00:25:14,400
because I'm not trained to do that

645
00:25:17,990 --> 00:25:16,200
okay anybody else like to add anything

646
00:25:20,390 --> 00:25:18,000
to that

647
00:25:23,510 --> 00:25:20,400
okay then go ahead I'd like to add one

648
00:25:25,310 --> 00:25:23,520
more thing about that from time to time

649
00:25:28,010 --> 00:25:25,320
people will send me tapes or transcripts

650
00:25:29,450 --> 00:25:28,020
of Investigations that have been done

651
00:25:30,409 --> 00:25:29,460
and sometimes they're done by therapists

652
00:25:33,169 --> 00:25:30,419
and sometimes they're done by

653
00:25:35,510 --> 00:25:33,179
investigators and I I haven't really I

654
00:25:38,390 --> 00:25:35,520
found investigators who do terrific jobs

655
00:25:41,570 --> 00:25:38,400
in support in empathy and sensitivity

656
00:25:44,570 --> 00:25:41,580
and I found therapists who are who are

657
00:25:46,070 --> 00:25:44,580
very insensitive and very close-minded

658
00:25:48,230 --> 00:25:46,080
about what's happening and not very

659
00:25:50,049 --> 00:25:48,240
helpful to people as well I think I'm a

660
00:25:53,630 --> 00:25:50,059
pretty good empath

661
00:25:56,149 --> 00:25:53,640
well you know what I I read recently a

662
00:25:58,430 --> 00:25:56,159
review of somebody's book about the

663
00:26:00,110 --> 00:25:58,440
production phenomenon and I mean it was

664
00:26:02,210 --> 00:26:00,120
a blurb on the MacBook and it said that

665
00:26:05,570 --> 00:26:02,220
this person is doing the correct Thing

666
00:26:07,430 --> 00:26:05,580
by a dramatic thing by assuming that

667
00:26:09,710 --> 00:26:07,440
these experiences are real to the person

668
00:26:11,510 --> 00:26:09,720
to whom they happen and skipping the

669
00:26:12,409 --> 00:26:11,520
question as to whether the events are

670
00:26:14,090 --> 00:26:12,419
real

671
00:26:17,930 --> 00:26:14,100
event leather

672
00:26:19,070 --> 00:26:17,940
and occurrences and of course I think

673
00:26:21,409 --> 00:26:19,080
that that's got everything completely

674
00:26:23,029 --> 00:26:21,419
backwards because we all everyone would

675
00:26:25,190 --> 00:26:23,039
agree the experiences are real to the

676
00:26:27,110 --> 00:26:25,200
person whom they have even as the worst

677
00:26:30,230 --> 00:26:27,120
skeptic in the world would say it's real

678
00:26:32,570 --> 00:26:30,240
to that person and The crucial thing to

679
00:26:34,789 --> 00:26:32,580
find out is that these events occur in

680
00:26:36,769 --> 00:26:34,799
in the real world that's what that's

681
00:26:39,649 --> 00:26:36,779
what we should be concentrating on and I

682
00:26:41,630 --> 00:26:39,659
don't think that any kind of of

683
00:26:45,470 --> 00:26:41,640
really proper therapy could even be

684
00:26:48,110 --> 00:26:45,480
administered if one uh was trying to say

685
00:26:49,490 --> 00:26:48,120
for instance with an alleged rape that

686
00:26:51,529 --> 00:26:49,500
to the therapist it made no difference

687
00:26:53,870 --> 00:26:51,539
whether the person was raped or whether

688
00:26:55,370 --> 00:26:53,880
the person fantasized for rape I think

689
00:26:58,490 --> 00:26:55,380
this therapies would probably be quite

690
00:27:00,830 --> 00:26:58,500
difficult the problem is that

691
00:27:02,690 --> 00:27:00,840
for people who are a licensed therapist

692
00:27:03,890 --> 00:27:02,700
for instance they're presented with some

693
00:27:05,930 --> 00:27:03,900
first of all they're presented with

694
00:27:07,610 --> 00:27:05,940
somebody in pain in distress suffering

695
00:27:12,169 --> 00:27:07,620
post-traumatic stress disorder some

696
00:27:13,730 --> 00:27:12,179
other problem and they don't know uh one

697
00:27:15,590 --> 00:27:13,740
group of investigator might have a large

698
00:27:16,970 --> 00:27:15,600
number of cases and they know and they

699
00:27:19,549 --> 00:27:16,980
might go to a conference and they might

700
00:27:22,310 --> 00:27:19,559
know but in my position if I'm presented

701
00:27:24,710 --> 00:27:22,320
with somebody like that if I proceed on

702
00:27:26,450 --> 00:27:24,720
on the The Firm belief that this

703
00:27:28,549 --> 00:27:26,460
actually happened an event level reality

704
00:27:30,590 --> 00:27:28,559
whether I believe it's true or not

705
00:27:33,110 --> 00:27:30,600
whether whether in fact actually is true

706
00:27:35,630 --> 00:27:33,120
or not the end result of that could be

707
00:27:37,610 --> 00:27:35,640
that if I have a bad outcome from a case

708
00:27:39,169 --> 00:27:37,620
and all Physicians have bad outcomes

709
00:27:41,149 --> 00:27:39,179
from cases no matter how good they are

710
00:27:43,070 --> 00:27:41,159
and all investigators and all

711
00:27:44,630 --> 00:27:43,080
investigators we all do and someone

712
00:27:47,029 --> 00:27:44,640
makes a complaint

713
00:27:48,649 --> 00:27:47,039
then I end up having to be called in

714
00:27:50,630 --> 00:27:48,659
front of my disciplinary board to

715
00:27:52,909 --> 00:27:50,640
justify the fact that I was approaching

716
00:27:55,549 --> 00:27:52,919
this case as if this was an actual fact

717
00:27:57,350 --> 00:27:55,559
and that's very difficult to justify to

718
00:27:58,850 --> 00:27:57,360
a very conservative Medical Board and

719
00:28:01,250 --> 00:27:58,860
the end result of that kind of a

720
00:28:03,110 --> 00:28:01,260
situation is that I get shut down

721
00:28:04,909 --> 00:28:03,120
probably all the other therapists in

722
00:28:06,350 --> 00:28:04,919
town get shut down it hits the

723
00:28:09,470 --> 00:28:06,360
newspapers and there's this tremendous

724
00:28:11,570 --> 00:28:09,480
backlash so the therapists Are any are

725
00:28:14,450 --> 00:28:11,580
in a curious position of wanting to help

726
00:28:16,669 --> 00:28:14,460
the best they can and trying to walk

727
00:28:20,090 --> 00:28:16,679
this fine line so I wouldn't be too hard

728
00:28:23,870 --> 00:28:20,100
on the therapist your therapist but but

729
00:28:25,850 --> 00:28:23,880
I was I I think that what's before us is

730
00:28:27,470 --> 00:28:25,860
beyond the problem of whether the

731
00:28:29,029 --> 00:28:27,480
experience is a real to the people we

732
00:28:30,830 --> 00:28:29,039
should all agree that they are some

733
00:28:32,210 --> 00:28:30,840
people don't you see that yes even even

734
00:28:33,950 --> 00:28:32,220
saying that they're real to the people

735
00:28:38,570 --> 00:28:33,960
in in a conservative medical or a

736
00:28:44,510 --> 00:28:41,169
well some people think that

737
00:28:47,090 --> 00:28:44,520
napoleonish but I think you do make a

738
00:28:49,310 --> 00:28:47,100
good point because for us to think that

739
00:28:51,130 --> 00:28:49,320
we know all about reality that there is

740
00:28:54,350 --> 00:28:51,140
and then try to

741
00:28:56,149 --> 00:28:54,360
describe that to the patient it's a very

742
00:28:59,450 --> 00:28:56,159
tricky process because how can we be

743
00:29:01,370 --> 00:28:59,460
sure we have to some extent if they seem

744
00:29:03,890 --> 00:29:01,380
sane and and they have past

745
00:29:05,810 --> 00:29:03,900
psychological testing and they indicate

746
00:29:07,430 --> 00:29:05,820
these things are real we do have to at

747
00:29:08,630 --> 00:29:07,440
least consider that and that is where a

748
00:29:12,350 --> 00:29:08,640
lot of therapists do have a problem

749
00:29:14,330 --> 00:29:12,360
because given all that they still put

750
00:29:16,370 --> 00:29:14,340
the boundaries on what they believe and

751
00:29:17,810 --> 00:29:16,380
impart that to the patient it's very

752
00:29:19,549 --> 00:29:17,820
interesting to see when that happens

753
00:29:21,529 --> 00:29:19,559
because they will make they'll be

754
00:29:23,510 --> 00:29:21,539
logical logical logical he'll point out

755
00:29:25,310 --> 00:29:23,520
to them how logic dictates that they are

756
00:29:27,470 --> 00:29:25,320
not psychotic they are not hallucinating

757
00:29:30,169 --> 00:29:27,480
they don't suffer from organic illness

758
00:29:36,789 --> 00:29:30,179
therefore this must be happening at some

759
00:29:41,389 --> 00:29:39,350
you see this process with investigation

760
00:29:43,909 --> 00:29:41,399
too over the years with each decade that

761
00:29:46,310 --> 00:29:43,919
passes there's a certain chunk of this

762
00:29:47,990 --> 00:29:46,320
weirdness that we accept but there's

763
00:29:50,990 --> 00:29:48,000
still this little bit that's too weird

764
00:29:53,889 --> 00:29:51,000
yet and in in such an odd field to call

765
00:29:56,149 --> 00:29:53,899
anything weird is is something in itself

766
00:29:59,210 --> 00:29:56,159
oftentimes this problem though is is

767
00:30:01,430 --> 00:29:59,220
solved by by the ffp or the person in

768
00:30:02,930 --> 00:30:01,440
front of you uh many people come and

769
00:30:05,570 --> 00:30:02,940
they they want to know if this happened

770
00:30:08,990 --> 00:30:05,580
to me or am I crazy or did I invent this

771
00:30:10,669 --> 00:30:09,000
in some way and and uh but oftentimes uh

772
00:30:12,230 --> 00:30:10,679
what happens is somebody for instance I

773
00:30:14,510 --> 00:30:12,240
had a situation where I had an attorney

774
00:30:17,330 --> 00:30:14,520
who uh remembered so he had when he's 15

775
00:30:19,010 --> 00:30:17,340
years old and he remembered the whole

776
00:30:21,470 --> 00:30:19,020
sequence of events under investigation

777
00:30:24,769 --> 00:30:21,480
and after it was over the first words

778
00:30:25,850 --> 00:30:24,779
out of his mouth where that was real and

779
00:30:28,850 --> 00:30:25,860
there was no doubt in his mind

780
00:30:31,730 --> 00:30:28,860
whatsoever and we just went from there

781
00:30:33,470 --> 00:30:31,740
but if he was seeing a conventional

782
00:30:35,870 --> 00:30:33,480
therapist who didn't wasn't necessarily

783
00:30:37,669 --> 00:30:35,880
familiar with this I've had patients

784
00:30:39,889 --> 00:30:37,679
who've done that and they have left the

785
00:30:41,630 --> 00:30:39,899
therapist because the the client was

786
00:30:43,669 --> 00:30:41,640
sure it was real and the therapist was

787
00:30:45,409 --> 00:30:43,679
sure it was not real and even though

788
00:30:47,450 --> 00:30:45,419
they were working on other issues that

789
00:30:48,710 --> 00:30:47,460
created a crisis of trust and a loss of

790
00:30:51,769 --> 00:30:48,720
trust and they split it was very

791
00:30:54,950 --> 00:30:51,779
traumatic the few abductees that I've uh

792
00:30:56,990 --> 00:30:54,960
you know followed over a long time

793
00:30:58,430 --> 00:30:57,000
that came to several years since that's

794
00:31:01,909 --> 00:30:58,440
all as long as I've been interested in

795
00:31:03,409 --> 00:31:01,919
this uh I've talked to some who switched

796
00:31:04,490 --> 00:31:03,419
back and forth a couple times I don't

797
00:31:06,230 --> 00:31:04,500
know if you see that oh absolutely

798
00:31:07,490 --> 00:31:06,240
they'd start off saying yes it must have

799
00:31:08,750 --> 00:31:07,500
felt real they'd walk out of your house

800
00:31:10,310 --> 00:31:08,760
and think about it for a couple of weeks

801
00:31:13,370 --> 00:31:10,320
and they said that couldn't have been

802
00:31:15,649 --> 00:31:13,380
real yeah I think that we we cannot

803
00:31:17,570 --> 00:31:15,659
overestimate the power of denial and a

804
00:31:20,289 --> 00:31:17,580
need for denial that's on the part I

805
00:31:23,210 --> 00:31:20,299
understand the Skeptics I I understand

806
00:31:25,789 --> 00:31:23,220
all the way down to the abductee himself

807
00:31:27,590 --> 00:31:25,799
or herself the basic need to put this on

808
00:31:29,090 --> 00:31:27,600
some shelf this cannot have happened and

809
00:31:32,269 --> 00:31:29,100
one of the most dramatic things that

810
00:31:33,230 --> 00:31:32,279
occurs all the time to me is when there

811
00:31:35,450 --> 00:31:33,240
is some

812
00:31:38,870 --> 00:31:35,460
bit of evidence or something that the

813
00:31:41,090 --> 00:31:38,880
abductee realizes is uh confirmatory of

814
00:31:43,669 --> 00:31:41,100
the of the truth of their experience for

815
00:31:46,430 --> 00:31:43,679
instance someone in a couple of cases

816
00:31:47,990 --> 00:31:46,440
have drawn exactly the same notational

817
00:31:50,269 --> 00:31:48,000
symbols that they've seen inside a ship

818
00:31:52,490 --> 00:31:50,279
as as my subject did when the subject

819
00:31:54,110 --> 00:31:52,500
was shown the other person's drawing

820
00:31:55,789 --> 00:31:54,120
which I've done twice now probably

821
00:31:58,310 --> 00:31:55,799
incorrectly

822
00:32:01,070 --> 00:31:58,320
uh that person both those people burst

823
00:32:03,649 --> 00:32:01,080
into tears they could not handle the

824
00:32:06,110 --> 00:32:03,659
fact that they're it's what they regard

825
00:32:08,690 --> 00:32:06,120
as their last ability to deny had been

826
00:32:11,690 --> 00:32:08,700
taken away from them this is disruptive

827
00:32:14,750 --> 00:32:11,700
of the entire fabric of society as we

828
00:32:16,370 --> 00:32:14,760
know it and it's there is a reason to

829
00:32:18,169 --> 00:32:16,380
deny it from every single solitary

830
00:32:19,430 --> 00:32:18,179
perspective especially the perspective

831
00:32:22,549 --> 00:32:19,440
of the people who are having these

832
00:32:23,930 --> 00:32:22,559
experiences many uh abductees gave us a

833
00:32:25,850 --> 00:32:23,940
very clear message during this

834
00:32:30,169 --> 00:32:25,860
conference and they would prefer to be

835
00:32:32,210 --> 00:32:30,179
crazy as opposed to that experience all

836
00:32:33,590 --> 00:32:32,220
of which brings about the brings us back

837
00:32:35,990 --> 00:32:33,600
to the importance of a conference like

838
00:32:38,690 --> 00:32:36,000
this and informing the Therapeutic

839
00:32:40,549 --> 00:32:38,700
Community of just what might be out

840
00:32:43,190 --> 00:32:40,559
there I'll look for it and not

841
00:32:45,950 --> 00:32:43,200
misdiagnose it I I can't think of

842
00:32:47,590 --> 00:32:45,960
anything more horrifying than some of

843
00:32:50,510 --> 00:32:47,600
the stories I've heard about

844
00:32:52,269 --> 00:32:50,520
the experience being drugged or even

845
00:32:55,130 --> 00:32:52,279
committed

846
00:32:58,310 --> 00:32:55,140
because no one recognized what might

847
00:33:00,230 --> 00:32:58,320
really be going on I want an interject a

848
00:33:03,110 --> 00:33:00,240
brief cautionary note here not that I'm

849
00:33:04,430 --> 00:33:03,120
arguing against the reality in

850
00:33:08,029 --> 00:33:04,440
particularly but one of the things that

851
00:33:09,830 --> 00:33:08,039
my eyes certainly were opened up by you

852
00:33:12,350 --> 00:33:09,840
know are organizing this thing together

853
00:33:14,930 --> 00:33:12,360
and then hearing the speakers was the

854
00:33:18,710 --> 00:33:14,940
fact that there are these other mental

855
00:33:23,810 --> 00:33:18,720
well that they're excuse me in the case

856
00:33:25,930 --> 00:33:23,820
of uh the ritual abuse you you have uh a

857
00:33:27,889 --> 00:33:25,940
lot of the same kinds of things

858
00:33:29,269 --> 00:33:27,899
multiple personality personality

859
00:33:30,950 --> 00:33:29,279
disorders that result from these

860
00:33:34,490 --> 00:33:30,960
experiences your people drawing pictures

861
00:33:36,169 --> 00:33:34,500
that uh look extremely similar and then

862
00:33:38,810 --> 00:33:36,179
you have a large fraction of the

863
00:33:41,450 --> 00:33:38,820
community investigating them saying with

864
00:33:44,810 --> 00:33:41,460
that these aren't real experiences you

865
00:33:46,370 --> 00:33:44,820
know so uh there are these parallels I

866
00:33:48,289 --> 00:33:46,380
used to think that when you had two

867
00:33:50,269 --> 00:33:48,299
independent people who do the same

868
00:33:52,970 --> 00:33:50,279
picture well there must be some real

869
00:33:54,950 --> 00:33:52,980
cause for that now I don't feel that way

870
00:33:56,810 --> 00:33:54,960
so strong here well I don't understand

871
00:33:59,810 --> 00:33:56,820
why don't you feel so strongly because

872
00:34:02,450 --> 00:33:59,820
in the case of the ritual abuse I mean

873
00:34:04,070 --> 00:34:02,460
the picture shown by different people of

874
00:34:06,110 --> 00:34:04,080
you know just how they were held down

875
00:34:07,549 --> 00:34:06,120
and so on and so forth you know where

876
00:34:09,409 --> 00:34:07,559
the bottle of blood was and stuff like

877
00:34:12,349 --> 00:34:09,419
that they're very similar those pictures

878
00:34:14,810 --> 00:34:12,359
and and uh yet they're there are people

879
00:34:17,089 --> 00:34:14,820
who argue by cogently they were here at

880
00:34:19,849 --> 00:34:17,099
the conference that these experiences

881
00:34:21,770 --> 00:34:19,859
did not actually occur

882
00:34:23,210 --> 00:34:21,780
and so and then there were the business

883
00:34:26,270 --> 00:34:23,220
of some of the people in the ritual

884
00:34:29,149 --> 00:34:26,280
abuse groups having shared uh shared

885
00:34:32,089 --> 00:34:29,159
dreams too so I don't know I mean I'm

886
00:34:34,250 --> 00:34:32,099
not it's just a I don't know where that

887
00:34:36,230 --> 00:34:34,260
how that fits into this but it is

888
00:34:37,849 --> 00:34:36,240
disturbing okay but it is disturbing

889
00:34:40,430 --> 00:34:37,859
there is one thing that has to be

890
00:34:42,530 --> 00:34:40,440
remembered though you can start finding

891
00:34:44,750 --> 00:34:42,540
parallels between abductions and a lot

892
00:34:47,149 --> 00:34:44,760
of other phenomena and at a level of

893
00:34:49,369 --> 00:34:47,159
abstraction it'll work quite well but

894
00:34:53,329 --> 00:34:49,379
when you start getting down to looking

895
00:34:55,369 --> 00:34:53,339
at it Case by case very carefully you

896
00:34:59,570 --> 00:34:55,379
begin to see certain consistent

897
00:35:02,930 --> 00:34:59,580
differences the the shamanic initiation

898
00:35:05,270 --> 00:35:02,940
phenomena has often been cited as a

899
00:35:08,510 --> 00:35:05,280
direct parallel and yes but you can find

900
00:35:10,730 --> 00:35:08,520
all kinds of of uh points of similarity

901
00:35:13,550 --> 00:35:10,740
but there are also some very significant

902
00:35:17,030 --> 00:35:13,560
differences and there does seem to be

903
00:35:20,290 --> 00:35:17,040
overall in that that core

904
00:35:23,390 --> 00:35:20,300
production phenomenon a coherency

905
00:35:24,650 --> 00:35:23,400
that's that's somehow qualitatively

906
00:35:27,650 --> 00:35:24,660
different

907
00:35:29,630 --> 00:35:27,660
I don't I would also uh along the lines

908
00:35:33,589 --> 00:35:29,640
you're saying say that the fact that you

909
00:35:35,930 --> 00:35:33,599
often see uh multiple Witnesses uh to

910
00:35:38,630 --> 00:35:35,940
some events that are corroboratory at

911
00:35:41,589 --> 00:35:38,640
the beginning of the experience of you

912
00:35:44,210 --> 00:35:41,599
know several people see the UFO and uh

913
00:35:45,829 --> 00:35:44,220
indicate that this one has seemed to

914
00:35:48,230 --> 00:35:45,839
have more power to bring in several

915
00:35:50,450 --> 00:35:48,240
people together in a testimonially

916
00:35:52,130 --> 00:35:50,460
documented fashion they're not just

917
00:35:54,890 --> 00:35:52,140
abuse right and not just at the

918
00:35:57,430 --> 00:35:54,900
beginning if you take a case like Barney

919
00:35:59,930 --> 00:35:57,440
and Betty Hill they had complementary

920
00:36:02,750 --> 00:35:59,940
abductions some people have said that

921
00:36:04,670 --> 00:36:02,760
okay Barney picked up Betty's dreams but

922
00:36:07,430 --> 00:36:04,680
with implied it was his internal

923
00:36:09,170 --> 00:36:07,440
experiences complementary to hers and

924
00:36:11,750 --> 00:36:09,180
not identical to hers

925
00:36:13,609 --> 00:36:11,760
one of the important ideas that came out

926
00:36:17,270 --> 00:36:13,619
of this for me a crystallization of an

927
00:36:19,849 --> 00:36:17,280
idea was the idea of clustering that

928
00:36:21,950 --> 00:36:19,859
stuff that that we may be dealing with a

929
00:36:23,870 --> 00:36:21,960
group of clusters a phenomena that as

930
00:36:25,370 --> 00:36:23,880
you say have certain parallels at a

931
00:36:26,870 --> 00:36:25,380
level of abstraction but when you get

932
00:36:28,130 --> 00:36:26,880
past that level of abstraction they

933
00:36:30,950 --> 00:36:28,140
actually separate on into distinct

934
00:36:32,390 --> 00:36:30,960
events but from the point of view of a

935
00:36:34,190 --> 00:36:32,400
therapist or an investigator that is

936
00:36:35,930 --> 00:36:34,200
seeing somebody cold off the street

937
00:36:37,910 --> 00:36:35,940
they've had an experience that's beyond

938
00:36:40,550 --> 00:36:37,920
their conception they haven't done all

939
00:36:42,710 --> 00:36:40,560
the reading into shamanic rituals uh

940
00:36:45,230 --> 00:36:42,720
Satanic ritual abuse abductions and a

941
00:36:47,630 --> 00:36:45,240
host of other things so they what what

942
00:36:50,089 --> 00:36:47,640
probably ends up happening is that they

943
00:36:51,770 --> 00:36:50,099
identify with the closest parallel that

944
00:36:53,390 --> 00:36:51,780
they encounter first and then they end

945
00:36:55,370 --> 00:36:53,400
up presenting to a worker in that field

946
00:36:57,050 --> 00:36:55,380
and it's it's the responsibility of each

947
00:36:58,849 --> 00:36:57,060
worker in those fields that share

948
00:37:01,730 --> 00:36:58,859
certain parallels to educate themselves

949
00:37:04,430 --> 00:37:01,740
about all the Clusters to be able to

950
00:37:06,710 --> 00:37:04,440
redirect the person appropriately

951
00:37:08,750 --> 00:37:06,720
yeah I couldn't agree more and one thing

952
00:37:11,270 --> 00:37:08,760
that came out in this conference was

953
00:37:14,870 --> 00:37:11,280
that there does seem to be a variety of

954
00:37:18,170 --> 00:37:14,880
causes that may have you know call have

955
00:37:20,750 --> 00:37:18,180
similar effects on people and I I don't

956
00:37:23,990 --> 00:37:20,760
envy the therapists position of having

957
00:37:25,970 --> 00:37:24,000
to try and sort out the you know and it

958
00:37:26,930 --> 00:37:25,980
as it may be necessary to do in some

959
00:37:29,390 --> 00:37:26,940
cases

960
00:37:31,550 --> 00:37:29,400
given these various complications that

961
00:37:35,630 --> 00:37:31,560
arise let's talk a little bit more about

962
00:37:38,030 --> 00:37:35,640
the teen team concept of Investigation I

963
00:37:40,310 --> 00:37:38,040
assume most of you agree with that I

964
00:37:42,530 --> 00:37:40,320
General notion if you don't feel free to

965
00:37:45,170 --> 00:37:42,540
say so but what would be some of your

966
00:37:48,290 --> 00:37:45,180
recommendations for an appropriate

967
00:37:48,300 --> 00:37:51,230
anybody

968
00:37:55,609 --> 00:37:52,730
well

969
00:37:59,450 --> 00:37:55,619
that's a very difficult question to

970
00:38:01,370 --> 00:37:59,460
answer to answer it generically I think

971
00:38:03,770 --> 00:38:01,380
there should there should be in a team

972
00:38:04,870 --> 00:38:03,780
both psychotherapeutically trained

973
00:38:11,990 --> 00:38:04,880
resources

974
00:38:15,109 --> 00:38:12,000
so many of the people that I've worked

975
00:38:16,670 --> 00:38:15,119
with one of the first questions first

976
00:38:18,829 --> 00:38:16,680
question that almost always comes up is

977
00:38:21,109 --> 00:38:18,839
can I talk to other people that have had

978
00:38:22,490 --> 00:38:21,119
this experience so these are basic

979
00:38:24,290 --> 00:38:22,500
resources that I think should be

980
00:38:25,849 --> 00:38:24,300
available the order in which they're

981
00:38:28,010 --> 00:38:25,859
used in the proportion which they're

982
00:38:29,329 --> 00:38:28,020
used is a very difficult question I

983
00:38:30,650 --> 00:38:29,339
think it's part of what we're all still

984
00:38:32,630 --> 00:38:30,660
debating

985
00:38:35,690 --> 00:38:32,640
I can add to that in terms of talking

986
00:38:38,870 --> 00:38:35,700
about the integration of those resources

987
00:38:40,849 --> 00:38:38,880
uh the therapist who's interested in

988
00:38:43,370 --> 00:38:40,859
helping may be lacking a great deal in

989
00:38:45,470 --> 00:38:43,380
the knowledge and phenomenon and needs

990
00:38:47,150 --> 00:38:45,480
that from the investigator investigators

991
00:38:50,089 --> 00:38:47,160
lacking in the understanding of

992
00:38:52,550 --> 00:38:50,099
emotional trauma and the sensitivity and

993
00:38:55,450 --> 00:38:52,560
timing of such interventions to resolve

994
00:38:57,430 --> 00:38:55,460
it or even wedding causes such symptoms

995
00:39:01,250 --> 00:38:57,440
and

996
00:39:02,510 --> 00:39:01,260
the experiencer can be there as the

997
00:39:04,849 --> 00:39:02,520
support person well actually everybody

998
00:39:07,310 --> 00:39:04,859
ends up being a support person but at

999
00:39:10,130 --> 00:39:07,320
least they have that unique perspective

1000
00:39:11,410 --> 00:39:10,140
which the others of us assume we don't

1001
00:39:14,810 --> 00:39:11,420
have

1002
00:39:16,490 --> 00:39:14,820
and you blend those together nicely with

1003
00:39:18,650 --> 00:39:16,500
the therapist basically retaining

1004
00:39:21,470 --> 00:39:18,660
control during hypnosis sessions but

1005
00:39:24,710 --> 00:39:21,480
getting information from the others and

1006
00:39:27,710 --> 00:39:24,720
then as Bud mentioned earlier the others

1007
00:39:30,530 --> 00:39:27,720
can become support persons it happens

1008
00:39:31,690 --> 00:39:30,540
anyway so you might as well organize it

1009
00:39:34,550 --> 00:39:31,700
that way

1010
00:39:37,730 --> 00:39:34,560
well interesting one of the uh

1011
00:39:39,770 --> 00:39:37,740
situations when it was described that a

1012
00:39:43,310 --> 00:39:39,780
teen should be working with one person a

1013
00:39:44,630 --> 00:39:43,320
therapist investigator and an experience

1014
00:39:46,609 --> 00:39:44,640
here how did I tell you whatever you

1015
00:39:48,050 --> 00:39:46,619
want to say uh I would have added to

1016
00:39:50,589 --> 00:39:48,060
that of course that's ideally wonderful

1017
00:39:53,150 --> 00:39:50,599
we should also have a radiologist

1018
00:39:55,190 --> 00:39:53,160
a lot of money and so forth to help with

1019
00:39:58,010 --> 00:39:55,200
the investigation the point is that we

1020
00:40:00,109 --> 00:39:58,020
are spread incredibly thinly because we

1021
00:40:01,849 --> 00:40:00,119
are facing a gigantic problem with

1022
00:40:03,410 --> 00:40:01,859
enormous numbers of people who were

1023
00:40:05,750 --> 00:40:03,420
crying for help and are very very

1024
00:40:07,670 --> 00:40:05,760
confused we do the best we can with the

1025
00:40:11,569 --> 00:40:07,680
resources we have in the very nature of

1026
00:40:12,890 --> 00:40:11,579
a meeting such as this was uh this is a

1027
00:40:15,170 --> 00:40:12,900
kind of subtext

1028
00:40:17,569 --> 00:40:15,180
the idea that we're

1029
00:40:19,849 --> 00:40:17,579
we're begging people to attended the

1030
00:40:21,770 --> 00:40:19,859
conference to put their own bodies on

1031
00:40:24,530 --> 00:40:21,780
the line and uh

1032
00:40:27,650 --> 00:40:24,540
begin to Cade in in the investigation

1033
00:40:29,150 --> 00:40:27,660
this problem it's it's almost a luxury

1034
00:40:31,490 --> 00:40:29,160
to sit around and talk about what would

1035
00:40:34,190 --> 00:40:31,500
be ideal when I'm sure we have now if

1036
00:40:38,450 --> 00:40:34,200
the resources are so thin and we're so

1037
00:40:40,430 --> 00:40:38,460
strained uh that uh just if we could

1038
00:40:44,030 --> 00:40:40,440
triple what we have right now it would

1039
00:40:46,130 --> 00:40:44,040
just be a mere beginning well bud it's

1040
00:40:47,930 --> 00:40:46,140
not only ideal it's exactly the way I've

1041
00:40:51,589 --> 00:40:47,940
operated the last three years so it's

1042
00:40:54,730 --> 00:40:51,599
entirely possible I I think it's time

1043
00:40:58,130 --> 00:40:54,740
and I agree with you on the flood of

1044
00:41:00,770 --> 00:40:58,140
needs they're coming at us it's time we

1045
00:41:02,450 --> 00:41:00,780
train more because we don't have a

1046
00:41:05,210 --> 00:41:02,460
hundred Bud Hopkins we need a hundred

1047
00:41:06,770 --> 00:41:05,220
Bud Hopkins but we need to really bring

1048
00:41:07,790 --> 00:41:06,780
in people and really start training

1049
00:41:10,790 --> 00:41:07,800
exactly

1050
00:41:13,310 --> 00:41:10,800
and then we have to somehow systematize

1051
00:41:16,010 --> 00:41:13,320
the referral of the training uh getting

1052
00:41:17,690 --> 00:41:16,020
everyone together up there too and get

1053
00:41:20,750 --> 00:41:17,700
rid of these big boxes of letters

1054
00:41:22,190 --> 00:41:20,760
because uh right now we have this to

1055
00:41:24,109 --> 00:41:22,200
work out a series of protocols so that

1056
00:41:25,730 --> 00:41:24,119
when a person comes to us and says

1057
00:41:27,530 --> 00:41:25,740
something might have happened a whole

1058
00:41:29,630 --> 00:41:27,540
set of procedures can be set in motion

1059
00:41:31,370 --> 00:41:29,640
meaning ultimately to the treatment

1060
00:41:32,870 --> 00:41:31,380
investigation and everything and right

1061
00:41:35,150 --> 00:41:32,880
now people are just sort of doing it as

1062
00:41:37,250 --> 00:41:35,160
best they can sometimes in your case it

1063
00:41:38,690 --> 00:41:37,260
works out well for other cases that

1064
00:41:41,210 --> 00:41:38,700
people just have to do it alone some

1065
00:41:43,430 --> 00:41:41,220
people have some support some don't it's

1066
00:41:46,190 --> 00:41:43,440
a situation that's not ideal but as Bud

1067
00:41:47,690 --> 00:41:46,200
says and as you're saying essentially we

1068
00:41:49,670 --> 00:41:47,700
need to train more people we need to get

1069
00:41:52,130 --> 00:41:49,680
more help and I think that that's going

1070
00:41:54,410 --> 00:41:52,140
to come I think that almost all the time

1071
00:41:56,030 --> 00:41:54,420
we have people coming forward offering

1072
00:41:59,390 --> 00:41:56,040
to help and offering to do more things

1073
00:42:04,250 --> 00:41:59,400
and I'm fairly optimistic about this

1074
00:42:05,750 --> 00:42:04,260
anybody else well I don't know how I

1075
00:42:07,490 --> 00:42:05,760
think this has some degree of importance

1076
00:42:08,990 --> 00:42:07,500
in the overall scheme of things it's a

1077
00:42:10,370 --> 00:42:09,000
it's a side point to what you mentioned

1078
00:42:12,710 --> 00:42:10,380
but glad you went off probably more

1079
00:42:15,650 --> 00:42:12,720
important in the immediate Direction uh

1080
00:42:17,450 --> 00:42:15,660
I I'm I believe myself at least to be a

1081
00:42:20,089 --> 00:42:17,460
non-experiencer that is nothing unusual

1082
00:42:21,290 --> 00:42:20,099
has ever really happened to me I have a

1083
00:42:22,730 --> 00:42:21,300
great sympathy for what these people are

1084
00:42:24,650 --> 00:42:22,740
going through and yet there is a point

1085
00:42:26,810 --> 00:42:24,660
Beyond which I just cannot really

1086
00:42:29,210 --> 00:42:26,820
understand because it's beyond our

1087
00:42:31,730 --> 00:42:29,220
consensus reality on the other hand one

1088
00:42:34,670 --> 00:42:31,740
of the advantages of that is a certain

1089
00:42:37,069 --> 00:42:34,680
objectivity and it's also a kind of

1090
00:42:37,670 --> 00:42:37,079
groundedness that is

1091
00:42:39,710 --> 00:42:37,680
um

1092
00:42:41,510 --> 00:42:39,720
I encourage people to explore their

1093
00:42:43,550 --> 00:42:41,520
experiences fully and to come to terms

1094
00:42:45,829 --> 00:42:43,560
with it but I'm also in some ways kind

1095
00:42:47,569 --> 00:42:45,839
of a reminder that a lot of their

1096
00:42:49,910 --> 00:42:47,579
immediate life is still back here and

1097
00:42:51,530 --> 00:42:49,920
this realm and I find that in the

1098
00:42:53,690 --> 00:42:51,540
Dynamics that go on in my work that

1099
00:42:55,430 --> 00:42:53,700
provides a really nice balance

1100
00:42:57,349 --> 00:42:55,440
so I think somehow we also have to

1101
00:43:00,530 --> 00:42:57,359
integrate that into the overall process

1102
00:43:03,410 --> 00:43:00,540
it's almost as if all of us

1103
00:43:04,970 --> 00:43:03,420
are adjusting I mean we focus on them as

1104
00:43:07,670 --> 00:43:04,980
making adjustments but we are making

1105
00:43:10,069 --> 00:43:07,680
adjustments as well and it's it's almost

1106
00:43:11,210 --> 00:43:10,079
like a grieving process of what we have

1107
00:43:14,510 --> 00:43:11,220
always known

1108
00:43:16,309 --> 00:43:14,520
we have lost that and we are having to

1109
00:43:19,550 --> 00:43:16,319
go through the different phases of

1110
00:43:21,650 --> 00:43:19,560
grieving that and accepting a whole new

1111
00:43:24,010 --> 00:43:21,660
way of looking at things which abductees

1112
00:43:27,589 --> 00:43:24,020
in many cases are well ahead of us

1113
00:43:30,170 --> 00:43:27,599
I think that uh just a second one

1114
00:43:32,210 --> 00:43:30,180
David just said about reminding the

1115
00:43:34,970 --> 00:43:32,220
people about where the real life lies

1116
00:43:37,730 --> 00:43:34,980
part of my whole approach to what I do

1117
00:43:40,809 --> 00:43:37,740
when I work with people is the dad very

1118
00:43:43,309 --> 00:43:40,819
thing to point out that that we spend

1119
00:43:44,750 --> 00:43:43,319
99.999 and whatever percent of our life

1120
00:43:47,170 --> 00:43:44,760
here on this Earth no matter what

1121
00:43:50,750 --> 00:43:47,180
strange things are happening

1122
00:43:52,010 --> 00:43:50,760
and in order to accent that and I have a

1123
00:44:01,130 --> 00:43:52,020
support group

1124
00:44:04,010 --> 00:44:01,140
uh 50 party and 50 percent uh discussing

1125
00:44:05,329 --> 00:44:04,020
issues because the party aspect have to

1126
00:44:07,370 --> 00:44:05,339
feel that you can be with other people

1127
00:44:09,170 --> 00:44:07,380
have the same crazy experience as you

1128
00:44:11,089 --> 00:44:09,180
had and yet those people are interesting

1129
00:44:12,589 --> 00:44:11,099
and intelligent and fun to talk to and

1130
00:44:15,950 --> 00:44:12,599
you can sit around with a glass of wine

1131
00:44:17,770 --> 00:44:15,960
or a cup of coffee and be a real alive

1132
00:44:20,089 --> 00:44:17,780
human being in the real life Community

1133
00:44:23,510 --> 00:44:20,099
uh which where you accept it is

1134
00:44:25,490 --> 00:44:23,520
extremely important and I don't ever try

1135
00:44:27,589 --> 00:44:25,500
to focus the support group thing in

1136
00:44:30,410 --> 00:44:27,599
terms of just even amount of max amount

1137
00:44:31,910 --> 00:44:30,420
of time on to the UFO subject I think

1138
00:44:33,470 --> 00:44:31,920
that this groundedness is one of the

1139
00:44:35,210 --> 00:44:33,480
most important therapeutic things we can

1140
00:44:37,250 --> 00:44:35,220
do it doesn't doesn't take a therapist

1141
00:44:40,130 --> 00:44:37,260
to help somebody have a nice time in the

1142
00:44:42,890 --> 00:44:40,140
real world with with some companions who

1143
00:44:45,950 --> 00:44:42,900
you can come to love and respect who've

1144
00:44:47,809 --> 00:44:47,210
okay

1145
00:44:50,450 --> 00:44:47,819
um

1146
00:44:52,309 --> 00:44:50,460
let's talk a little while now about uh

1147
00:44:53,990 --> 00:44:52,319
what's next on the agenda Where Do We Go

1148
00:44:56,450 --> 00:44:54,000
From Here what's what's the state of the

1149
00:44:58,910 --> 00:44:56,460
art and in that same context Suppose

1150
00:45:01,609 --> 00:44:58,920
there are people watching this who may

1151
00:45:05,290 --> 00:45:01,619
be experiencers if anybody has any

1152
00:45:07,130 --> 00:45:05,300
recommendations on them

1153
00:45:08,870 --> 00:45:07,140
[Music]

1154
00:45:11,210 --> 00:45:08,880
interject something a little bit ahead

1155
00:45:12,970 --> 00:45:11,220
of that okay because I wanted to discuss

1156
00:45:15,890 --> 00:45:12,980
what to me was one of the important

1157
00:45:18,770 --> 00:45:15,900
outcomes or realizations I think many

1158
00:45:20,809 --> 00:45:18,780
people at the conference and that uh

1159
00:45:24,290 --> 00:45:20,819
which also has its antidote and that is

1160
00:45:25,990 --> 00:45:24,300
that you know it seems from the Roper

1161
00:45:28,730 --> 00:45:26,000
pole that a lot of people have symptoms

1162
00:45:30,349 --> 00:45:28,740
that are associated in Reverse Direction

1163
00:45:33,470 --> 00:45:30,359
uh with

1164
00:45:35,569 --> 00:45:33,480
um being an experiencer and there are a

1165
00:45:38,270 --> 00:45:35,579
couple of studies with very low

1166
00:45:41,569 --> 00:45:38,280
statistics presented that indicate that

1167
00:45:42,770 --> 00:45:41,579
these may be used as questions the some

1168
00:45:45,349 --> 00:45:42,780
of the questions like the ones in the

1169
00:45:47,870 --> 00:45:45,359
broker poll may be in fact used to pull

1170
00:45:50,990 --> 00:45:47,880
out uh people who are experiencers and

1171
00:45:52,550 --> 00:45:51,000
this on the one hand indicates that the

1172
00:45:54,650 --> 00:45:52,560
fraction of experiences in the general

1173
00:45:57,950 --> 00:45:54,660
population is tremendously High maybe in

1174
00:46:00,770 --> 00:45:57,960
the low percent level

1175
00:46:03,230 --> 00:46:00,780
um and now that cuts both ways the first

1176
00:46:04,910 --> 00:46:03,240
way it cuts is it means that the sample

1177
00:46:06,589 --> 00:46:04,920
of people we've gotten are only one

1178
00:46:08,270 --> 00:46:06,599
thousand the tip of the tip of the tip

1179
00:46:09,950 --> 00:46:08,280
of the iceberg and so the way that we've

1180
00:46:12,589 --> 00:46:09,960
selected them inadvertently or the way

1181
00:46:16,130 --> 00:46:12,599
they've selected themselves is is a

1182
00:46:18,109 --> 00:46:16,140
tremendous possible source of bias on

1183
00:46:20,809 --> 00:46:18,119
what's really out there on the other

1184
00:46:23,150 --> 00:46:20,819
hand the fact that this is such a

1185
00:46:25,130 --> 00:46:23,160
prevalent uh seems to be such a

1186
00:46:26,990 --> 00:46:25,140
prevalent thing in uh the general

1187
00:46:30,650 --> 00:46:27,000
population means that we can select

1188
00:46:32,089 --> 00:46:30,660
people uh in a very unbiased way we can

1189
00:46:33,890 --> 00:46:32,099
go out and search them out for instance

1190
00:46:35,390 --> 00:46:33,900
the people who responded with four or

1191
00:46:37,670 --> 00:46:35,400
five positives in the broker poll and I

1192
00:46:39,349 --> 00:46:37,680
think it's clear that these people

1193
00:46:41,870 --> 00:46:39,359
should be followed up and they will be

1194
00:46:44,750 --> 00:46:41,880
followed up even given the tremendous

1195
00:46:46,370 --> 00:46:44,760
overload that we have among the

1196
00:46:48,950 --> 00:46:46,380
investigators and therapists yes but

1197
00:46:50,950 --> 00:46:48,960
given that they uh often do this on

1198
00:46:53,089 --> 00:46:50,960
their own timetable how is that going to

1199
00:46:56,390 --> 00:46:53,099
affect things if you go out and start

1200
00:47:00,170 --> 00:46:56,400
trying to push them now you you have to

1201
00:47:02,089 --> 00:47:00,180
wait until they see or feeling need to

1202
00:47:03,290 --> 00:47:02,099
explore it they may have these symptoms

1203
00:47:05,450 --> 00:47:03,300
but they may not want to do anything

1204
00:47:07,309 --> 00:47:05,460
that's right or certainly not a number

1205
00:47:09,170 --> 00:47:07,319
of them indicate in the poll that

1206
00:47:10,910 --> 00:47:09,180
they're willing to be followed up so you

1207
00:47:13,069 --> 00:47:10,920
can follow up and explore this issue

1208
00:47:15,290 --> 00:47:13,079
okay yeah I can share your view that you

1209
00:47:17,030 --> 00:47:15,300
shouldn't push anyone into therapy or or

1210
00:47:18,829 --> 00:47:17,040
investigation it doesn't yeah I

1211
00:47:19,970 --> 00:47:18,839
certainly agree with that I think that

1212
00:47:21,470 --> 00:47:19,980
the next thing that has to be done

1213
00:47:22,670 --> 00:47:21,480
however and one of the more important

1214
00:47:24,410 --> 00:47:22,680
ideas that I've gotten from the

1215
00:47:26,210 --> 00:47:24,420
conference is that we must have a a

1216
00:47:28,730 --> 00:47:26,220
standardization in methodology

1217
00:47:30,770 --> 00:47:28,740
methodology and in treatment that is

1218
00:47:33,290 --> 00:47:30,780
agreed upon by by most people who do

1219
00:47:34,670 --> 00:47:33,300
this sort of work uh I think that this

1220
00:47:36,170 --> 00:47:34,680
is extremely important so that we can

1221
00:47:38,510 --> 00:47:36,180
learn what the parameters of this

1222
00:47:41,089 --> 00:47:38,520
phenomenon are and also so we can learn

1223
00:47:43,370 --> 00:47:41,099
the proper modes of treatments uh I

1224
00:47:44,750 --> 00:47:43,380
think this is coming but uh right now we

1225
00:47:47,510 --> 00:47:44,760
still have an awful lot of work to do

1226
00:47:49,250 --> 00:47:47,520
with that and uh of course we also need

1227
00:47:51,170 --> 00:47:49,260
as we mentioned before we need to Simply

1228
00:47:52,550 --> 00:47:51,180
enlist more people in doing this and the

1229
00:47:53,870 --> 00:47:52,560
world proposed study has shown that

1230
00:47:55,790 --> 00:47:53,880
there's an awful lot of therapists out

1231
00:47:57,829 --> 00:47:55,800
there who are willing to donate their

1232
00:47:59,450 --> 00:47:57,839
time until at least to look look into it

1233
00:48:00,950 --> 00:47:59,460
further and we hope that we'll be able

1234
00:48:02,329 --> 00:48:00,960
to get a significant number of them who

1235
00:48:04,490 --> 00:48:02,339
will actually engage in this kind of

1236
00:48:05,210 --> 00:48:04,500
work and so we're quite optimistic about

1237
00:48:06,370 --> 00:48:05,220
that part

1238
00:48:08,390 --> 00:48:06,380
[Music]

1239
00:48:10,790 --> 00:48:08,400
one of the

1240
00:48:13,490 --> 00:48:10,800
uh

1241
00:48:15,470 --> 00:48:13,500
aspects of the conference which I

1242
00:48:17,329 --> 00:48:15,480
suggested

1243
00:48:22,309 --> 00:48:17,339
a bit of a problem

1244
00:48:27,050 --> 00:48:24,230
a tendency from time to time to slip

1245
00:48:29,390 --> 00:48:27,060
into discussions of the nature of the

1246
00:48:32,450 --> 00:48:29,400
aliens quote unquote whatever they may

1247
00:48:34,790 --> 00:48:32,460
be as to whether they're helping us or

1248
00:48:38,270 --> 00:48:34,800
hurting us the good guys versus bad guys

1249
00:48:40,010 --> 00:48:38,280
versus the bad guys and of course

1250
00:48:41,990 --> 00:48:40,020
I think essentially that gets into

1251
00:48:44,930 --> 00:48:42,000
almost a kind of theological argument

1252
00:48:47,089 --> 00:48:44,940
and I think we must concentrate our

1253
00:48:49,670 --> 00:48:47,099
attention on what is happening to human

1254
00:48:51,050 --> 00:48:49,680
beings and help them explore their own

1255
00:48:52,730 --> 00:48:51,060
personal experiences

1256
00:48:55,370 --> 00:48:52,740
because I think

1257
00:48:58,430 --> 00:48:55,380
if you if you start dealing with whether

1258
00:49:01,190 --> 00:48:58,440
or not you have been these are enemies

1259
00:49:03,349 --> 00:49:01,200
these are friends or whatever uh you're

1260
00:49:04,309 --> 00:49:03,359
providing yourself with either food for

1261
00:49:07,010 --> 00:49:04,319
paranoia or some kind of

1262
00:49:09,170 --> 00:49:07,020
rationalizations uh

1263
00:49:10,730 --> 00:49:09,180
that can feed a certain kind of denial

1264
00:49:13,970 --> 00:49:10,740
we've got to get people I think away

1265
00:49:15,530 --> 00:49:13,980
from those judgments what happens when

1266
00:49:17,450 --> 00:49:15,540
it's the experiencers who make that

1267
00:49:19,069 --> 00:49:17,460
judgment though we see that happening I

1268
00:49:22,550 --> 00:49:19,079
I think that I think that one of the

1269
00:49:23,930 --> 00:49:22,560
problems is that uh

1270
00:49:31,790 --> 00:49:23,940
the

1271
00:49:33,829 --> 00:49:31,800
involved can have an undue influence in

1272
00:49:37,730 --> 00:49:33,839
that area and I've I think we've seen

1273
00:49:40,910 --> 00:49:37,740
examples to conference I have of feeding

1274
00:49:42,349 --> 00:49:40,920
a certain sort of theological line uh

1275
00:49:45,710 --> 00:49:42,359
being uh

1276
00:49:48,650 --> 00:49:45,720
paid out by a therapist investigator or

1277
00:49:50,270 --> 00:49:48,660
whatnot which I think

1278
00:49:52,550 --> 00:49:50,280
is not

1279
00:49:56,569 --> 00:49:52,560
in other words it's almost as if they're

1280
00:49:59,030 --> 00:49:56,579
trying to decide the nature and moral uh

1281
00:50:01,190 --> 00:49:59,040
qualities of the germs without trying to

1282
00:50:03,890 --> 00:50:01,200
figure out what the disease is

1283
00:50:05,630 --> 00:50:03,900
this is this is a very complex question

1284
00:50:08,270 --> 00:50:05,640
because it

1285
00:50:10,250 --> 00:50:08,280
we it turns back to the question of

1286
00:50:11,690 --> 00:50:10,260
investigator versus therapist depending

1287
00:50:14,450 --> 00:50:11,700
on how you want to define those terms

1288
00:50:17,450 --> 00:50:14,460
and the balance between when do you have

1289
00:50:18,710 --> 00:50:17,460
enough information versus which is what

1290
00:50:20,030 --> 00:50:18,720
the investigator was the investigator

1291
00:50:22,609 --> 00:50:20,040
wants complete information and the

1292
00:50:24,470 --> 00:50:22,619
therapist primary goal is to return the

1293
00:50:26,990 --> 00:50:24,480
patient to a state of emotional

1294
00:50:28,750 --> 00:50:27,000
stability and if one is working a case

1295
00:50:30,829 --> 00:50:28,760
through to a certain point and

1296
00:50:32,809 --> 00:50:30,839
psychologically there appears to be a

1297
00:50:35,930 --> 00:50:32,819
calm and a resolution

1298
00:50:38,329 --> 00:50:35,940
but one may not have a full Corpus of

1299
00:50:41,990 --> 00:50:38,339
data then what do you do now as a

1300
00:50:44,270 --> 00:50:42,000
therapist my primary obligation is to

1301
00:50:46,190 --> 00:50:44,280
maintain their health it may be it is

1302
00:50:47,510 --> 00:50:46,200
conceivable that we have not worked

1303
00:50:49,490 --> 00:50:47,520
through the full body material but

1304
00:50:51,430 --> 00:50:49,500
perhaps we have reached a plateau for

1305
00:50:54,349 --> 00:50:51,440
that person at that time

1306
00:50:56,089 --> 00:50:54,359
to force it through that's a that's

1307
00:50:57,950 --> 00:50:56,099
that's a difficult decision and most of

1308
00:51:00,230 --> 00:50:57,960
the time actually I don't do it because

1309
00:51:02,270 --> 00:51:00,240
I still know with with certainty so

1310
00:51:04,010 --> 00:51:02,280
little about it but they know that I'm

1311
00:51:05,690 --> 00:51:04,020
available for them whether it's in a

1312
00:51:07,370 --> 00:51:05,700
month or six months of a year I'm still

1313
00:51:09,230 --> 00:51:07,380
there right so I don't really care how

1314
00:51:11,569 --> 00:51:09,240
long the investigation takes I agree

1315
00:51:13,430 --> 00:51:11,579
David I don't think anybody wants to

1316
00:51:15,890 --> 00:51:13,440
force somebody to Sure through to

1317
00:51:18,109 --> 00:51:15,900
anything I mean time to think about that

1318
00:51:20,630 --> 00:51:18,119
I know uh we don't have the time for

1319
00:51:24,410 --> 00:51:20,640
that but I think that uh

1320
00:51:27,170 --> 00:51:24,420
the the the biggest cloud on the horizon

1321
00:51:29,569 --> 00:51:27,180
actually as I see it uh is a kind of

1322
00:51:31,490 --> 00:51:29,579
theological argument which is that I

1323
00:51:34,370 --> 00:51:31,500
think essentially a waste of time yeah

1324
00:51:37,130 --> 00:51:34,380
it misses yeah Point all the way around

1325
00:51:38,569 --> 00:51:37,140
that's the way the experiences uh and or

1326
00:51:40,730 --> 00:51:38,579
certain ones of them seem to be taking

1327
00:51:43,190 --> 00:51:40,740
it to them it's beginning to be a

1328
00:51:45,049 --> 00:51:43,200
profound philosophical or religious

1329
00:51:46,730 --> 00:51:45,059
issue so they are they're introducing

1330
00:51:49,609 --> 00:51:46,740
her perhaps that's a method of their

1331
00:51:51,470 --> 00:51:49,619
coping now they choose that and it works

1332
00:51:53,450 --> 00:51:51,480
for them and it doesn't hurt them or

1333
00:51:56,450 --> 00:51:53,460
anybody else it's okay no I agree with

1334
00:51:59,210 --> 00:51:56,460
them you know I one of the

1335
00:52:01,069 --> 00:51:59,220
I want to ask a question here not Dave

1336
00:52:03,250 --> 00:52:01,079
really one of the things that I've

1337
00:52:05,870 --> 00:52:03,260
observed in the difference between

1338
00:52:07,490 --> 00:52:05,880
investigators and therapists or I don't

1339
00:52:10,430 --> 00:52:07,500
want to paint it that black between

1340
00:52:13,910 --> 00:52:10,440
those two different uh logical systems

1341
00:52:17,690 --> 00:52:13,920
is the difference in in what is

1342
00:52:19,809 --> 00:52:17,700
perceived as progress or Truth uh to the

1343
00:52:23,210 --> 00:52:19,819
investigator it's it's case-to-case

1344
00:52:27,530 --> 00:52:23,220
reproducibility and to the therapist

1345
00:52:29,450 --> 00:52:27,540
many times it seems to be a a big change

1346
00:52:32,210 --> 00:52:29,460
in how the person relates to the

1347
00:52:35,329 --> 00:52:32,220
phenomena now in your work do you feel

1348
00:52:39,109 --> 00:52:35,339
that lines of Investigation or approach

1349
00:52:41,510 --> 00:52:39,119
to more neutral work that result in a

1350
00:52:42,950 --> 00:52:41,520
change significant change in how the

1351
00:52:44,750 --> 00:52:42,960
person views the experience when you

1352
00:52:46,609 --> 00:52:44,760
regard that as something to be

1353
00:52:47,930 --> 00:52:46,619
encouraged or stay away from or a

1354
00:52:48,829 --> 00:52:47,940
positive indicator that you're in the

1355
00:52:50,809 --> 00:52:48,839
right track or do you think is

1356
00:52:53,150 --> 00:52:50,819
indication you're beginning to relieve

1357
00:52:56,210 --> 00:52:53,160
these mislead these people in religious

1358
00:52:58,549 --> 00:52:56,220
ways uh well I I don't uh try to lead

1359
00:53:00,530 --> 00:52:58,559
them into any view of their of of the

1360
00:53:02,390 --> 00:53:00,540
nature experience we just try to uncover

1361
00:53:04,910 --> 00:53:02,400
what actually happened right I don't

1362
00:53:06,230 --> 00:53:04,920
care what do and when I have a support

1363
00:53:08,089 --> 00:53:06,240
group meeting one of the things I have

1364
00:53:10,010 --> 00:53:08,099
to do is to some extent a referee

1365
00:53:11,510 --> 00:53:10,020
between people who want to break the

1366
00:53:12,770 --> 00:53:11,520
next of the aliens and other people who

1367
00:53:15,049 --> 00:53:12,780
feel they've had some kind of spiritual

1368
00:53:18,190 --> 00:53:15,059
growth as a result and it's fine by me I

1369
00:53:21,589 --> 00:53:18,200
don't care which ones but the point is

1370
00:53:23,809 --> 00:53:21,599
the it's an argument that that leads

1371
00:53:26,690 --> 00:53:23,819
nowhere and we want resolution but of

1372
00:53:29,630 --> 00:53:26,700
course I've I'm feeling very often that

1373
00:53:32,450 --> 00:53:29,640
people who have come to a very very

1374
00:53:35,089 --> 00:53:32,460
positive view of the experience uh have

1375
00:53:37,250 --> 00:53:35,099
just uh in a certain sense constructed a

1376
00:53:39,109 --> 00:53:37,260
silver lining which is perhaps

1377
00:53:41,089 --> 00:53:39,119
postponing the true effect of the

1378
00:53:43,309 --> 00:53:41,099
disillusionment that's bound to come and

1379
00:53:45,109 --> 00:53:43,319
the problems and so on so I see it as in

1380
00:53:46,490 --> 00:53:45,119
a certain sense a problem of therapy

1381
00:53:49,190 --> 00:53:46,500
that's right I think I think what you're

1382
00:53:53,210 --> 00:53:49,200
saying and what I find also is that uh

1383
00:53:55,309 --> 00:53:53,220
to me uh it however the the abductee

1384
00:53:56,930 --> 00:53:55,319
handles it is up to the to the

1385
00:53:58,250 --> 00:53:56,940
circumstances and the background and the

1386
00:54:00,470 --> 00:53:58,260
upbringing of the abductee and whatever

1387
00:54:02,930 --> 00:54:00,480
works for them is the best way and we'll

1388
00:54:05,510 --> 00:54:02,940
work with that as long as it brings a

1389
00:54:08,390 --> 00:54:05,520
relief and and some sort of therapeutic

1390
00:54:11,329 --> 00:54:08,400
value the danger is having the therapist

1391
00:54:13,910 --> 00:54:11,339
or the investigator uh have a structure

1392
00:54:17,150 --> 00:54:13,920
of his or her own that they overlay on

1393
00:54:20,630 --> 00:54:17,160
the experience and sort of steer the

1394
00:54:23,030 --> 00:54:20,640
abductee into that that structure and

1395
00:54:24,829 --> 00:54:23,040
that has a totally different agenda and

1396
00:54:26,950 --> 00:54:24,839
that can be quite quite dangerous I

1397
00:54:29,569 --> 00:54:26,960
think

1398
00:54:32,750 --> 00:54:29,579
right it's a very a very quick example

1399
00:54:36,410 --> 00:54:32,760
of something I was horrified was one man

1400
00:54:39,290 --> 00:54:36,420
who uh was a therapist who insisted that

1401
00:54:40,970 --> 00:54:39,300
uh uh aliens were much more trustworthy

1402
00:54:44,270 --> 00:54:40,980
than human beings and that one of his

1403
00:54:46,130 --> 00:54:44,280
ritual things he tells a new uh object

1404
00:54:49,190 --> 00:54:46,140
he was working with or experience or

1405
00:54:50,450 --> 00:54:49,200
whatever is that he has to fill them in

1406
00:54:51,470 --> 00:54:50,460
on the government cover-up and the

1407
00:54:52,970 --> 00:54:51,480
extent that which the government is

1408
00:54:56,750 --> 00:54:52,980
lying I thought how in the world would

1409
00:54:58,190 --> 00:54:56,760
any therapist feel I have the nerve to

1410
00:55:01,390 --> 00:54:58,200
say that something he has to present to

1411
00:55:04,549 --> 00:55:01,400
us to his patient or his client I mean

1412
00:55:08,030 --> 00:55:04,559
that's again almost theology that that

1413
00:55:10,490 --> 00:55:08,040
kind of a problem uh is offensive but it

1414
00:55:13,069 --> 00:55:10,500
it's not unique to this phenomenon it's

1415
00:55:16,130 --> 00:55:13,079
it comes up in all kinds of therapeutic

1416
00:55:18,049 --> 00:55:16,140
cases and it's just it's bad work and

1417
00:55:19,790 --> 00:55:18,059
the problem is that it's it's hard to

1418
00:55:22,730 --> 00:55:19,800
find good people like it's hard to find

1419
00:55:27,170 --> 00:55:22,740
a good pizza in town but it's a problem

1420
00:55:33,470 --> 00:55:30,910
from the standpoint of a data shelter

1421
00:55:36,230 --> 00:55:33,480
the uh

1422
00:55:38,930 --> 00:55:36,240
completeness of any one given case is

1423
00:55:41,089 --> 00:55:38,940
not all that significant if you have

1424
00:55:43,609 --> 00:55:41,099
enough cases

1425
00:55:46,970 --> 00:55:43,619
the overall body of the thing you know

1426
00:55:49,370 --> 00:55:46,980
LOL equal out at the end if there is

1427
00:55:52,549 --> 00:55:49,380
genuinely some kind of equality in there

1428
00:55:55,010 --> 00:55:52,559
so you know by all means I would say

1429
00:55:58,370 --> 00:55:55,020
look out first and only for the the good

1430
00:56:00,470 --> 00:55:58,380
of failure absolutely right yes and and

1431
00:56:03,349 --> 00:56:00,480
God will take care of itself as long as

1432
00:56:05,390 --> 00:56:03,359
everybody communicates that economically

1433
00:56:07,730 --> 00:56:05,400
that's that's an excellent point for the

1434
00:56:08,750 --> 00:56:07,740
duty I think to who whoever is doing the

1435
00:56:11,569 --> 00:56:08,760
research whether it's research

1436
00:56:13,190 --> 00:56:11,579
investigation therapy is for the clients

1437
00:56:17,150 --> 00:56:13,200
or the patient in front of them and

1438
00:56:19,549 --> 00:56:17,160
their their well-being is number one on

1439
00:56:21,650 --> 00:56:19,559
the um the priority list and collection

1440
00:56:24,950 --> 00:56:21,660
of data is number two and number two is

1441
00:56:28,130 --> 00:56:24,960
in a much lower level I had an example

1442
00:56:31,370 --> 00:56:28,140
of working with a uh a 13 or 14 year old

1443
00:56:34,309 --> 00:56:31,380
girl who was a born-again Christian who

1444
00:56:35,329 --> 00:56:34,319
uh was in tears and shock after an

1445
00:56:37,790 --> 00:56:35,339
abduction which you remembered

1446
00:56:39,650 --> 00:56:37,800
consciously because when she was on the

1447
00:56:40,609 --> 00:56:39,660
table and things were being done to her

1448
00:56:42,829 --> 00:56:40,619
body

1449
00:56:44,809 --> 00:56:42,839
she was praying to God to save her and

1450
00:56:46,910 --> 00:56:44,819
take her out of there and God didn't

1451
00:56:49,549 --> 00:56:46,920
save her and take her out and I found

1452
00:56:52,490 --> 00:56:49,559
myself having a long long discussion

1453
00:56:54,650 --> 00:56:52,500
about why that should not be damaging to

1454
00:56:55,970 --> 00:56:54,660
her faith because I was certain that

1455
00:56:58,970 --> 00:56:55,980
there were other times she prayed for

1456
00:57:00,410 --> 00:56:58,980
some sort of Deliverance that prayers

1457
00:57:02,630 --> 00:57:00,420
one reason or another had not answered

1458
00:57:06,549 --> 00:57:02,640
and here I was from the point of view of

1459
00:57:12,530 --> 00:57:10,370
young women get back the support that

1460
00:57:14,390 --> 00:57:12,540
seemed to be very crucial to her life

1461
00:57:16,390 --> 00:57:14,400
and what she needed at that point so I

1462
00:57:19,069 --> 00:57:16,400
think we do have to uh

1463
00:57:21,349 --> 00:57:19,079
we have to use every possible tool

1464
00:57:26,270 --> 00:57:21,359
that's available to help that person

1465
00:57:28,609 --> 00:57:26,280
regardless of of data or okay good

1466
00:57:29,990 --> 00:57:28,619
that's a that's a very good note to

1467
00:57:32,270 --> 00:57:30,000
close on and I want to thank you all

1468
00:57:35,990 --> 00:57:32,280
very much for your cooperation thank you

1469
00:57:40,010 --> 00:57:36,000
just add one thing uh and that is that

1470
00:57:43,790 --> 00:57:40,020
one of the big problems in this field is

1471
00:57:46,910 --> 00:57:43,800
is resources you know we we're beginning

1472
00:57:50,329 --> 00:57:46,920
to get people who volunteered to collect

1473
00:57:53,690 --> 00:57:50,339
up a number of MRI or CAT scans uh who

1474
00:57:54,650 --> 00:57:53,700
are going to deal with alien writing or

1475
00:57:57,349 --> 00:57:54,660
something like this and we're beginning

1476
00:57:58,790 --> 00:57:57,359
to get into the specialist regime but

1477
00:58:01,010 --> 00:57:58,800
all of this kind of thing and

1478
00:58:03,470 --> 00:58:01,020
investigation physical evidence in

1479
00:58:06,170 --> 00:58:03,480
particular but data banks and

1480
00:58:09,349 --> 00:58:06,180
standardized psychological testing forms

1481
00:58:12,290 --> 00:58:09,359
requires money and I really think that

1482
00:58:14,990 --> 00:58:12,300
the people out there have got to start

1483
00:58:17,450 --> 00:58:15,000
supporting researched a little bit more

1484
00:58:19,549 --> 00:58:17,460
than 25 or 50 dollars I mean some

1485
00:58:21,950 --> 00:58:19,559
serious resources are needed in this

1486
00:58:23,390 --> 00:58:21,960
field and our progress is clearly being

1487
00:58:27,570 --> 00:58:23,400
held back because they aren't there

1488
00:58:27,580 --> 00:58:51,470
[Music]

1489
00:58:51,480 --> 00:59:04,730
oh